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Reconnaissance in fleet and movement


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#1 Ziriko Keplit

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Posted 16 September 2014 - 02:02 PM

Hi!

 

Someday wannabe very little fc here ^_^

 

I have question - there is target calling part in FC job but that seems to be minor, easiest and most obvious part.

 

But there is very little information on:

1) Reconnaissance. 

       scouting (how? with what? etc?)?

      when, what for use scanner (and how do it properly)?

      designated scouts (when? how much?)

      communication - if you have designated scouts and have separate communication channel with them, how you deal with multiple communication channels ?

2) movement of fleet - obviously you are not going shortest path to enemy fleet till you meat them.

     what maneuvers are you doing on way to enemy and which in what case?

    where you are setting camps and why there?

    jumping into enemy: pros? cons? (

    jumping through gate or no?

    gates, as I understand they have different sizes and "size does matter" (no this is not about what you thought pervert :P )

:blink:

 

Any expirienced FC on mood to do educational lecture? :rolleyes:

 


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#2 Lady Ayeipsia

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Posted 16 September 2014 - 02:27 PM

To start with... Gates...

There are two basic types of gates in Eve. I'm not talking about faction or design, but rather Regional Gates and Normal Gates.

Regional Gates are those found between the various regions of Eve such as Forge, The Citadel, Khanid Kingdom, etc. These gates are large and only found when jumping from a system in one region to a system in a different region. (note, region is larger than constellation and constellations are things you can ignore for the most part). I think the nearest regional gates to our little area are at least 3 jumps, on the other side of Jita. Go take a trip and compare the size of a regional gate to a normal one. You'll quickly realize that a regional gate is a huge pain to camp because of the size. People can spawn anywhere with 16 km or so of a gate, and on a regional gate that could mean they are over 40km apart.

But in RvB, don't stress. We have only normal gates to deal with. Normal gates are what you see when jumping from say Jos to Otela. Camping is easier as the gate is smaller. If you orbit the gate at 500 m, and have a T2 warp disrupt you can most likely reach anyone that jumps through (range wise, actually catching them is a different story).

That said, we try not to sit with too many gate camps in RvB. As an FC, sitting on a gate means you are stationary. Your enemy knows where you are and can warp in at range, especially in our fun little area where there's more than one way to get from here to there. And well... Gate camps work best when people have to cone through the gate to you.

I'll talk about movement next.
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#3 Lady Ayeipsia

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Posted 16 September 2014 - 03:02 PM

Movement of fleet... Ugh... Do you have Dotlan.com bookmarked? Do it.

Go there and look at the forge region. If you look at our little area it looks like.... (i hope this works)

Otela
/ \
/ \
/ \
Josemeto--------Poinen
\ /
\ /
\ /
Liek

HQs are in Otela and Liek, and well... It's a big old circle. (skipping Obanen or I will complicate this too much)

I can get from Otela to Liek by traveling to Jose, then Liek; Poinen, then Liek; or even Jose, then Poinen, then Liek. (add in Obanen and I could go Otela >> Jos >> Poinen >> Obanen >> Liek)

Now why would I do all this if Otela >> Jos >> Liek is easiest? Because easy is also heavily traveled and has many, many eyes. It may also have gate camps.

Now about our little home section of the Forge...

Otela/liek these are HQ systems. Expect to find a lot of the enemy here. They may not be active, they may be sitting in station "spinning ships" (my record is 42 before I get bored and have to go kill or die), but this is where they sit. If I jump into Liek and see only 1 blue in local, that worries me more than jumping in and seeing 20 in local. 20, there's probably ablue fleet up and people sitting on station. 1... There's a fleet out there somewhere active or I missed a memo.

Jos: this is the main highway. It's closest to Jita and usually the place people setup camps. Expect Jos to have members of both present, some docked, some active.

Poinen: Mang's backyard... Don't Muck It Up! Less traveled, used more for events. Use this place if you wish to move discreetly.
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#4 Toshiro Hasegawa

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Posted 16 September 2014 - 06:05 PM

I am not an FC but i play one on TV  ... errr .. i have been playing eve a long time and have flown with alot of them: good, bad and ugly.

 

I am not sure if you want the full meal deal answer as it applies to high, low, null or just specifically RvB.  I am going to make an assumption before carrying on into verbosity that you mean RvB.

 

1) Reconnaissance.

 

scouting:  Scouting always a good idea - knowing what your enemy is flying, what system they are in, how many in the ajoining systems, how many docked, how many active, and how close or far from gates, stations all makes the job of an FC easier.  I dont think we scout enough in RvB .. cause scouting takes time .. and in some ways results in less action .. but my opinion is that without good scouting - and FC can find themselves getting nuked by the opposing fleet which does more to lower morale and leads to people logging off which means less fighting overall.  So in the long run - although it might take longer i think it leads to better fights which in turn leads to more fights over time. 

 

when, what for use scanner (and how do it properly)?

 

Three ways to scout (imho)  eyeball, D-Scan, probes.  There is sooo much info on each i wouldnt write it here, check out google for a website, like EvE-Uni for in depth explanations of D-Scan and Combat Probing .. in RvB we mostly use eyeballs ..   non cloaky fast moving ship - warps to 200 off gate and sees the enemy and reports it on comms or chat.  If they are good they will use D-Scan to get a nice little compact list of enemy names and ships, post that info into a webapp that in turns spits out a nice webpage with the info that you can link.  There is a post in RvB forums about it .. i think it was Corniel's (sp?).  D-Scan can be used from far away off grid..  but you dont see the enemies layout and if they have drones out etc..  Pros and Cons.

 

designated scouts (when? how much?)

 

Usually a FC will ask for a volounteer .. if they want scouts . some do and some dont.  If no one volounteers someone gets volountold. In the nullsec alliances scouts are often predetermined and vetted before being allowed to scout.  In RvB its anyone anytime.  The thing that makes it easier is we are usually in 3-4 systems .. you know where people usually are .. and often the FCs are talking .. so there are already alot of variables off the table.

 

communication - if you have designated scouts and have separate communication channel with them, how you deal with multiple communication channels ?

 

We dont .. one channel. Limitation of EvE Voice.  In Null it depends on the FC and the comms setup .. i have seen it used and not seen it.  I think its better when the scout is on another comms line to the FC .. but thats me.

 

2) movement of fleet -

 

obviously you are not going shortest path to enemy fleet till you meat them.

 

Yes we do .. alot of the time. Scout "They on the Otela gate in Jos" FC "Align Jos - Warp - Jump on contact and hold cloak".   We dont have alot of paths to take .. and depending on the fleet composition we might wander through Poinen - to Jos or to Leik .. Depends on variables .. who has more #s, what ship types we have and they have .. As with any fighting .. small or large, real war, boxing, pixel pew pew ..  maneuvering until you have the advantage is a good thing .. but in RvB - its often about having a fight .. regardless of winning .. so just giving'er is sometimes the best MO .. sometimes.  

 

what maneuvers are you doing on way to enemy and which in what case?

 

I am not 100% what you mean by maneuvers on the way ..  usually its a matter of warping to a gate, jumping through and warping to the next one.  But ..  It usually goes like this .. "Fleet Align to X", "Fleet take this warp (and the FC fleet/wing/squad warps the whole group to the location". "Fleet Hold on gate" / or / "Fleet Jump on Contact" / or / "Fleet get on Optimals off of Gate" / or / "Fleet Jump on Contact and hold Cloak" / or / "Fleet Jump on Contact and align X".  Sometimes fast ships are sent through first, sometimes bait, sometimes everyone .. sometimes no one ..  so many variables.

 

where you are setting camps and why there?

 

Camps are usually camps in RvB .. there are station camps .. but they arnt popular or effective .. and usually not even fun. Camps are usually on the Liek gate in Jos, or the Otela gate in Jos.  Usually at optimals .. somtimes hugging the gate.  Again depends on ship types, fittings, optimals, support ships - composition of the enemy etc.. Best all learned by just doing it a bunch. Null is different as you can use bubbles, interdictors - and there are more cloaky stuff and people comming in from wormholes, people jumping in through cynos or cloaky cynos or god knows what.

 

jumping into enemy: pros? cons?

 

Pros - its fun .. if you think you have the edge it can catch them napping if they dont have a scout on the other side. If they are close in and you are close in fit ,.. then its good .. if they are range fit and you jump in and they are at optimal its bad.  Again having knowledge of the enemy is good - scouting good .. ignorance bad. I prefer the going around if you can .. and then warping in on the enemy at range ..  but sometimes .. jumping in and starting a chaotic fight in the middle of their gate camp is awesome.

 

jumping through gate or no?

 

 

You have to jump through gates.. dont get the question.

 

gates, as I understand they have different sizes and "size does matter"

 

I had no idea until i read Lady's response that there was a different size .. not sure if that "new" (post 2007) or if i am just ignorant .. i'll go with the later.


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#5 Ophelia Yotosala

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Posted 16 September 2014 - 07:16 PM

Hi!

 

Someday wannabe very little fc here ^_^

 

I have question - there is target calling part in FC job but that seems to be minor, easiest and most obvious part.

 

But there is very little information on:

1) Reconnaissance. 

       scouting (how? with what? etc?)?

      when, what for use scanner (and how do it properly)?

      designated scouts (when? how much?)

      communication - if you have designated scouts and have separate communication channel with them, how you deal with multiple communication channels ?

2) movement of fleet - obviously you are not going shortest path to enemy fleet till you meat them.

     what maneuvers are you doing on way to enemy and which in what case?

    where you are setting camps and why there?

    jumping into enemy: pros? cons? (

    jumping through gate or no?

    gates, as I understand they have different sizes and "size does matter" (no this is not about what you thought pervert :P )

:blink:

 

Any expirienced FC on mood to do educational lecture? :rolleyes:

If the two answers doesnt really answer your questions fully and you would like to hear us talk in game we can set up a little fleet with a few FC's too tell you if not demonstrate our reasons for our decisions as FC's. If you would be interested in this please let me know here or send me an in game mail and ill get a few othe Vet FC's over for us to answer your questions. None the less the two posts above this cover your questions pretty nicely.


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#6 Ziriko Keplit

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Posted 17 September 2014 - 01:28 PM

First of all thank you all for answers :)

 

 

 

You have to jump through gates.. dont get the question.

 

 

That was about situations when you know that on other side of gate is enemy - should you jump through and engage or wait till they jump to you.

There is difference in dispositions:

1) if you jump to enemy inside of system then you land as consolidated team and enemy will be more dispersed.

2) if you jump to enemy through gate then your team will be scattered more than enemy but you will have time sitting in cloak to evaluate targets

3) if you wait till enemy jumps through gate to you than you have preference in way of dictating where your and enemy fleet will be at beginning of fight but in that case enemy will see you first and will have tame to evaluate situation.

 

So that question was about 1) jumping to enemy inside of system; 2) jumping to enemy through gate 3) waiting till enemy will jump to you (pros and cons)

 

That what I meant with it :)

 

But anyway anyhow answers was very informative thank you :)


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#7 Ophelia Yotosala

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Posted 17 September 2014 - 02:00 PM

First of all thank you all for answers :)

 

 

 

That was about situations when you know that on other side of gate is enemy - should you jump through and engage or wait till they jump to you.

There is difference in dispositions:

1) if you jump to enemy inside of system then you land as consolidated team and enemy will be more dispersed.

2) if you jump to enemy through gate then your team will be scattered more than enemy but you will have time sitting in cloak to evaluate targets

3) if you wait till enemy jumps through gate to you than you have preference in way of dictating where your and enemy fleet will be at beginning of fight but in that case enemy will see you first and will have tame to evaluate situation.

 

So that question was about 1) jumping to enemy inside of system; 2) jumping to enemy through gate 3) waiting till enemy will jump to you (pros and cons)

 

That what I meant with it :)

 

But anyway anyhow answers was very informative thank you :)

 

 

 

 

To answer your question above there are pros and cons..Yet decisions aren't necessarily based off of the pros and cons as much as they are based off of what you have to work with. Decisions like this are usually based off of a few things.

1)How willing is your fleet and enemy fleet to lose ships

2)sizes of the fleet approx.

3)What kind of strategy/fleet comp are you looking at having/fighting

 

Heres the Pros and Cons:

 

1)(PROS) 

jumping to a fleet on gate from inside the system can allow you to set up where you want to be compared to them easier. Therefore if your more of a kitey fleet you don't want to warp in at 10km ilke you would jumping through a gate. We all know what will happen. Also as an FC you can ideal organize your plan a litte better knowing if you warp in at some range or location you can still change your plan accordingly.

 

 (CONS)

there are many disadvantages now being that your in the same system. If the FC knows what hes doing He can see waht ships are in system and change his plan off of what you may have. Another thing is if you guess wrong about the location of the enemy fleet on gate and they are lets say 70k off and your not kitey well now its a cat and mouse chase. This will lead to a slow fight as compared to hoping into battle right out of warp.

 

2(PROS)

Jumping through the gate will almost create an instant battle as assuming your enemy fleet is neither kite or 6k running stabbers and ventures. lol . Therefore the enemy fleet without a scout of some sort wont really know much about your fleet comp and what your running. Depending on the situation this may come in handy. This tactic really gives you the surprise in surprise attack if the enemy fleet doesn't know your on the other side.

 

(CONS)

Well just like them not know knowing what your jumping in as well you don't know what your jumping into unless you have a scout. If your not an FC that comfortable with changing your tactics and commanding instantly then you wont have a fun time with this method.  Plus sometimes its easy to camp a gate and hit only those that waddle through  as compared to jumping. almost like the Homefield advantage if you will.

 

3(PROS)

pretty much take all the cons from you jumping into them and those are your pros.. This is really just reversed. By camping a gate you can set yourself up for battle.

 

(CONS)

well take all the Pros from part 2 and now those jumping in have that advantage.

 

 

 

Now as an FC we don't just decide to put 1,2,3 in a hat and choose our fate. Our decisions are based off of what we have to work with fleet wise . If you have an all kite fleet why would you want to jump through a gate landing on the other side at 10km.. you will get destroyed. Plus if the enemies numbers are low usually gate camps are the ideal norm only because it allows them to form up or get people to fleet if  the Otela gate or Liekuri gates in Josemento are blocked. You will find that alot of the FC's decisions happen in real time, meaning they adapt as battles occur using what they know about their fleet .

 

 

I could go into more depth but i didn't have the time atm.


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#8 Lady Ayeipsia

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Posted 17 September 2014 - 02:26 PM

Two fleets on opposite sides of a gate... Well... It's so much more complicated than you think.

First off, you are correct. Whomever jumps through has the disadvantage of being dispersed randomly around the gate. However, how much of a disadvantage is that? It depends in fleet comp and your enemy setup.

For example, if I have 10 Prophecies with Screams, webs, MWDs, and HAMs (heavy assault missiles), I would happily jump through into the enemy. We will be able to grab anything close or burn back to gate.

If I had 10 frigates with afterburners, and they had 5 frigates with points and 5 caracals... I wouldn't jump in. And even if they jump in... I may say bail as those caracals could be light missile fit and chew us up.

So what you are asking is actually not a to jump or not to jump, but rather dependant on what you know.

And if you don't know what's on the other side... Send a disposable frigate through first. You have a minute of gate cloak for him to report Intel and you decide. Just remember... They may have eyes on your fleet too.

All that said... Think about our situation... Blues are camping the Otela gate in Jos... A gate camp is a form of ambush... Ideally, avoid the ambush but that gets no good fights.

Red could just jump right in, but blue is prepared for this and unless red is strong, they will get killed.

Red could run to Poinen, then Jos and try to land on the gate camp. However, the local channel is Intel. If Blues see a spike of red pilots in Jos local they realize and reposition. Or heck, they could have eyes in poinen and move to that gate, catching the red fleet there.

Ideally... What I would do...

Form red fleet at a safe between Jose/poinen gate in otella.

Send 2 scout to poinen. Have the scouts report any eyes on the gate or system.

Send scouts to Jos gate in poinen. Keep one scout there, send one scout through to Jose.

Have the Jose scout go spy on the enemy fleet.

Get 2 bait ships ready to warp to Jos gate in otela...

If the enemy does change position... Pull Jos scout away from gate...

Send bait to otela gate... Have fleet get to Jos gate in poimen.

Have bait jump into jos, decloak, burn back to the gate, then engage.

Fleet jumps into poinen, warps to bait and I pray we ate in time to save at least one bait ship and get ample kills.
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#9 Lady Ayeipsia

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Posted 17 September 2014 - 02:30 PM

Another trick in the above scenario...

Take my whole fleet into poinen, then liek. Position most of the fleet off grid but near the Jose gate. Have a few camp the blue HQ. Send one scout to the Jos hate in liek, one to the poiben Gate. Have them jump through and watch those in-gates.

When the blue fleet realizes they missed us and we are getting easy kills at their HQ while they camp, hopefully I can catch them coming to us.

In other words, my hope is to make the enemy react to me and come to me instead of me go to them.
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