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Utility instead of Gank for FCs?

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#1 Rasmus Forlorn

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Posted 24 July 2014 - 12:00 PM

Hello, fellow FCs!

 

After reading Yng's great post on target calling and having come up with my own list of what to primary - the following idea came up in my mind:

 

Does it make sense to fit utility modules like Ship Scanners to your FC boat?

 

I wanted to use it to identify glass cannons and taking them off the field quickly. Often I see the same type of ship, once fit pure gank (not even a DCU, far less any tank) while the same type flies around pure tank. I am learning to identify guns, but that process is not yet reliable in the heat of battle for me... which brought up the idea to just scan the next likely targets and pick the best result.

 

I usually FC in a Frigate, so my dps or tank is not too strong anyway. I have second thoughts about providing the hard tackle, neut or other EWar for my fleet to kill off ships easily. I see my main role in directing fire and (slowly learning that) getting the fleet into position when next targets are not in optimal range.

 

Am I seeing this the wrong way round and just leaving a big advantage to my 'enemy FC' bringing in a glass cannon boat to FC in?

 

Cheers!

Ras

 


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#2 Fishysquirrel

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Posted 24 July 2014 - 01:07 PM

In my fairly limited experience you don't really have the time to ship scan in order to check who is glass cannon. It would be better to learn what the different kinds of guns look like so you can estimate whether big tank would fit on a hull next to those.

 

Other than that I have always thought that in regular RvB fighting flying a full gank ship as FC is pretty rude


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#3 Lady Ayeipsia

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Posted 24 July 2014 - 01:15 PM

If your enemy FC brings a glass cannon, shoot him first, plain and simple. He is in violation of the don't be a dick rule, is violating the spirit of the Gentlemen's FC agreement by abusing his position, and deserves to die.

Just make sure you have a back up caller as they may target you in response. Still, don't stress and if the enemy FC complains, show him his loss mail and state that such abuses should not be tolerated.

As for what you bring as FC... My preference is tanky with tolerable dps and point/web. This way I know i have a point on the target so can request spreading points with no issue. As for tolerable DPS...

http://red.rvbeve.co...l&kll_id=718101
http://red.rvbeve.co...l&kll_id=718113

Neither of those fits are super high DPS. They provide decent enough DPS, and enough tank to survive accidental drone agro, people who forget primary, and those who say "damn the FC, I'll shoot the enemy FC if he primaries me".
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#4 Lady Ayeipsia

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Posted 24 July 2014 - 01:17 PM

Oh as for looking at guns, encourage your fleet/scouts ti do this and learn the trick. It's great if you can, do learn it too. However, few FCs can keep the fleet in motion, watch targets, keep people from shooting the enemy FC, and check guns. Deligate responsibility so you can better do your main job.
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#5 Zack Dust

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Posted 24 July 2014 - 02:02 PM

Like Fishysquirrel said, you won't have the time to scan down multiple ships before you chose the next target. You should be focusing in managing your fleet composition, and their position during the engagement, while calling targets (if possible assign a backup target caller, that will also have the mission to broadcast your calls and help you out in general).

 

Has for what you should fly in my opinion if you get the benefit of not getting targeted, just try not to be douchebag. I see long range lock EWAR ships like maulus/crucifier has a good way to start/go since altho you won't be doing a relevant amount of dps, your influence can still be rather important. Most of the time in RvB you'll find enemies FC's in high tank hard tackle ships, witch in my opinion is a dick move since you can't for example redirect fire to him in order to help one off your pilots, FC's shouldn't even be allowed to tackle in my opinion, if the arrangement was made to not target him (but i guess i'll leave that discussion for another day). In the end take your own conclusions and chose your hand.

 

There's different ways of getting an idea of what enemy pilots are flying:

 

1 - ship type (the different bonus ships have are a good tell of how they will most likely be flown)

 

2 - identify guns (yourself or has i would recommend send a competent pilot to scout enemy fleet just before the engagement happens)

 

3 - their tactical position at the start of the engagement (if he's far off, let's say 50k from the fleet, you can safely assume he will be attacking from range, or if he's at 0 with the rest of his fleet he will probably be brawling and should have a decent tank)

 

4 - knowing the pilot, with time you'll start to know pilots in RvB and how some usually fly a certain kind of ships (either because they use a set of implants that boosts that kind of ships or simply because its their play style)

 
Hoppe it helps, cheers o7

 

 


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#6 Charles Burger

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Posted 24 July 2014 - 02:29 PM

If your enemy FC brings a glass cannon, shoot him first, plain and simple. He is in violation of the don't be a dick rule, is violating the spirit of the Gentlemen's FC agreement by abusing his position, and deserves to die.

 

Yes but how do you know? If it's a Thorax then duh. But my gank Maller setup has over 550 dps, how would you know if I've brought that or my usual FC brick? If you are suspicious (eg. I have been top damage on a few killmails in the last fight) then fitting a ship scanner sounds like a good way to verify, and if confirmed, call me primary before having a good whine at me in fleets channel.


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#7 Lady Ayeipsia

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Posted 24 July 2014 - 02:39 PM

Let's not leave the discussion for another day. Why shouldn't an FC tackle?

Let me state some basic reasons why I think they can and should:

1) all PvP ships, save for special purpose such as snipers, ranged ewar, or special fleet doctrine ships, should have a point. If your fleet can't tackle, it is useless, so all ships should have a point barring a few exceptions.

2) ship availablity: we should not impose an extra restriction on FCs forcing them to have a set of FC ships. None of my FC ships are for FCing only. They are set for combat. This way I can FC at the drop of the hat in whatever if needed. I don't need an extra set of pointless, special FC boats and given how hard it is to get FCs, we shouldn't hinder them with needing special ships. And sorry, but just saying keep the same ships, just don't point causes drama. People will either claim it was the FC pointing them linking a killmail with the point on the ship or complain about how the other side has am advantage because their FC is setup for this restriction and yours isn't.

3) you start down.a slippery slope with this. FC can't point, but can TP. But we should be able to kill th TP, so no TP on FC, then it's another ewar mod, then guns to stop glass cannons. In otherwords, opening this up gives the internet lawyers a chance to make it worse.

4) How do you deal with 2ndary target callers? Do they become the FC temporarily and have to drop point? Is this one more detail we need to hash out slowing down the fights?

5) killing the point to free a fleetmate... I can think of no example where it would only be the FC holding that fleetmate. If it is, then kill the FC. Otherwise, you need to kill more than the FC, so how would no point on the FC change anything?

So please, help me see your point of view. Why should an FC be pointless?
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#8 Lady Ayeipsia

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Posted 24 July 2014 - 02:45 PM

Yes but how do you know? If it's a Thorax then duh. But my gank Maller setup has over 550 dps, how would you know if I've brought that or my usual FC brick? If you are suspicious (eg. I have been top damage on a few killmails in the last fight) then fitting a ship scanner sounds like a good way to verify, and if confirmed, call me primary before having a good whine at me in fleets channel.


Given that you need the largest size medium lasers for that DPS, we look at your guns. If they are small ACs, you are probably rocking triple plates and to be avoided. If they look medium, and there is nothing I think weaker tanked near by, we'll shoot you.

Last night was a great example. Red face 4+ Vexors lead by xancha... A quick glance of their guns let us see who had small ones and who didn't. Vexors with larger guns were our primary.
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#9 Rasmus Forlorn

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Posted 24 July 2014 - 04:03 PM

 



Let's not leave the discussion for another day. Why shouldn't an FC tackle?

 

I did not want to say that no FC should tackle. I expressed my own, very personal, belief of how I love to FC in RvB. My own, self-chosen, etiquette so to say.

 

I fully agree with you - it is a slippery slope and I have not yet determined how far down I want to slide on it. My take at the moment is, if the fleet is well mixed and there are multiple points available - jolly good. If however I am the only one who brought a point and now am using my impunity to enable the kills that the fleet otherwise would not have gotten this is not the way I want to play.

 

The same is true for the being a glass cannon FC. Again this violates my own, self-chosen, etiquette. 

 

What I take from this discussion is that in part my etiquette nicely overlaps with most of yours (glass cannon FC), and in part it's stricter (tackle FC). 

 

[I love the don't be a dick rule... epic!]

 

And in the end, this is Eve... so anyone can bring and do whatever they want. I love your answers and your views - what the consequences and next actions would be on your side. This is exactly what I wanted and want to learn as it will inform my own etiquette and decision making.

 

You guys rock!

Ras

 


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#10 Rasmus Forlorn

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Posted 24 July 2014 - 04:07 PM

Given that you need the largest size medium lasers for that DPS, we look at your guns. If they are small ACs, you are probably rocking triple plates and to be avoided. If they look medium, and there is nothing I think weaker tanked near by, we'll shoot you.

Last night was a great example. Red face 4+ Vexors lead by xancha... A quick glance of their guns let us see who had small ones and who didn't. Vexors with larger guns were our primary.

 

Yet another great reason for me to continue learning to read guns. I am still in the left section of the learning curve... what I enjoy so much in Eve is that you can learn things one at a time and whenever I have something new sorted, there will be plenty left in the bowl of knowledge to chose from for what's next :)

 

Ras


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#11 Rasmus Forlorn

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Posted 24 July 2014 - 04:16 PM

Kind of summarizing: I want to be the chess player when I am FC'ing. Not a 2nd queen on the board that is immune to the other pieces.

 

This I would see for myself as a violation of the Gentlemen's Agreement as I abuse my immunity to deliver a critical advantage to my side. Depending on the situation, that can be a consistently applied high dps or critical ewar or anything else that has a significant impact on the outcome on top of my actions as the player directing the pieces and developing the strategy.

 

If I am a figure on the chessboard that can be taken by the other team I of course try to bring the biggest advantage I can to my side. 

 

It's really the combination of immunity and significantly affecting the outcome (with my spaceship, not with my commanding) that brushes up against my values.

 

.o( Link Logi FC... )

 

Ras


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#12 Yngvarr

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Posted 24 July 2014 - 04:18 PM

I'm a sucker for this one, I normally fit a long point but no hard tackle as FC as watching stuff just warp away annoys me. I always tell my fleets that if the enemy FC is pointing you and the only one stopping you leaving the field then feel free to shoot him.

 

I've heard that me using a long point annoys some people but nobody has approached me directly about it, would like to have input on this.

 


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#13 Rasmus Forlorn

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Posted 24 July 2014 - 04:29 PM

I'm a sucker for this one, I normally fit a long point but no hard tackle as FC as watching stuff just warp away annoys me. I always tell my fleets that if the enemy FC is pointing you and the only one stopping you leaving the field then feel free to shoot him.

 

I've heard that me using a long point annoys some people but nobody has approached me directly about it, would like to have input on this.

 

My view is: if others can get away because your fleet did not point them (and I talk RvB engagements here - roams are a different topic altogether), then let them get away.

 

Allowing the primaried (1 ship) to start shooting the FC holding him down will likely have little impact... by the time the lock is on the FC boat and any significant damage has been put on the FC, the ship that would otherwise have gotten out likely has already melted. 

 

Yell at Talk with your fleet to bring and keep points. Don't point yourself but congratulate the other for being able to pull out in time - which in the heat of the battle is not an easy feat to pull off when thousands of dps start peeling your skin off.

 

[They will be out of battle for at least 90s - warp to station, repair, warp back, reengage. No big difference to a well prepared pilot who has a couple more ready fit ships in said next station and just hops into a new hull, then hurls himself back into the fray.]

 

 

edit: replaced yell at with talk with. Makes way more sense as Ayeipsia pointed out.


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#14 Lady Ayeipsia

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Posted 24 July 2014 - 06:48 PM

One point, FCing method, skill, and outfitting also has to do with comfort levels and trust of the fleet.

Yng and I are at two different areas. Yng is probably our best FC, or near the top and has logged the most hours FCing in our tracking system. I struggle to stay in the top 20 total time in our system. What he is comfortable with differs from myself.

For example, our two fleets clashed last night. His fleet was a little more kitey, mine was brawly. I could have brought a kiter/sniper as well, but I hate leading a fleet from far away. I can and have done it, but prefer not to. I also don't trust my fleet to have points and know what to do. Heck, CatalystX was in my fleet, look at his title.

Yng was kiting away, trust his brawlers to know what they are doing. He is much more comfortable flying that way.

On the other hand, both of us are more skilled and use to the unique brand of herding cats that is RvB. I mean at one point my whole fleet was off chasing mice and meowing at me, yet an enemy fleet was inbound. Newer FCs to RvB start to break down and freak at that point. They will yell and complain about the fleet not being on grid. All I had to do was remind the fleet a bigger mouse was coming, and poof... My fleet is on gate, grinning like the Cheshire Cat.

Another example, in another fight our FC called a primary that was 20km away and a secondary that was 6km away. The FC was screaming at us to stop shooting the secondary, yet we still did. Why... Well... Blasters. I can shoot and cause damage to the close guy while traveling to the farther target, or I can switch ammo, shoot the far target, approach, switch ammo, shoot them again. The FC should have called the secondary first, or accepted the split DPS due to range. Yelling at us and starting to have a fit, only encouraged us to fool around with the FC more.
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#15 gunnar

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Posted 24 July 2014 - 07:17 PM

Tip: when planning something, make sure you or even more ideal someone close to you has a character among your targets. Not just for live stuff, but for their planning. Information is always key. Plenty ways to get that before things happen, plenty ways to find out fleet composition & details while things happen.

 

Granted, different case when it's Red versus Blue than say, Ganked - but all too often I see folks trying to figure things out visually while stuff is already happening. Which is nice, but it is like situational awareness ... only 1 out of a hundred tends to have it, to varying degrees.

 

As for whether an FC should or should not tackle, there's great arguments to make for either case, ultimately however it comes down to whether or not the group is able / enabled to follow suit accordingly. One thing that - again - comes to mind is that no FC can ever approach matters from his or her personal skills / ship / fittings / aptitude. Sucks maybe, and often it's a bit of an ego blow, but it's about the median average of capabilities - forget that and the group dynamic will break. Zero exceptions. More so in close to medium range doctrines than long range, but even there it holds up. As long as any fleet relies on focused force getting split up or segregated due to internal differences is something which at best diminishes fleet performance.

 

 


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#16 Rasmus Forlorn

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Posted 24 July 2014 - 07:55 PM

I am still waiting to be proven deadly wrong there and made sour for the rest of my life - but I deeply believe that people are able to do extraordinary things.

 

Very much including the rank and file.

 

This is more a Leader than a Commander thought - but I believe that people are able to rise up when they see confidence in them from their leader. As long as they are told what to do and assumed to be babies that cannot be trusted to anything but hitting F1... they will be delivering just that performance.

 

Not at all related to Eve, but so beautiful about what a leader is: 

 

http://www.ted.com/t...sic_and_passion

http://www.ted.com/t..._inspire_action

 

Edit: yelling around and having fits is not what Leaders do. I will aspire to following Mount Yngvarr with his example of trust in the capability of his fleet. So far he was hardly ever proven wrong - the few times I could fly with him so far, we were hardly ever beaten. And as a fleet mate, it felt damn good to be trusted and guided by him.


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#17 Lady Ayeipsia

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Posted 24 July 2014 - 08:25 PM

Inspiring confidence and trust doesn't mean you actually do trust. I mean I love my 4 year old I want her to hage confidence in herself and to enjoy her imagination. That doesn't mean I trust her declaration The Fresh Beat Band and One Direction came to daycare today. I just smile and play along.

And well... Think about this.... Yng trusts, but what makes you more inspired... The leader who is with the kiters who can bail from the fight with ease, or the brawler who will stay till others have bailed and only leave at that point if the other side let's him. In other words, Yng can run and save his ship (like a calvery knight). Me... I'm with the infantry, sink or swim.

As for people stepping up, it's a great thing. Nothing is greater to an FC's ears than some new person stepping up to call targets and try to hold the field while the FC and others reships. On the other hand, that dead silence when you know you have numbers to hold, but no one to call sucks. The challenge is encouraging people to speak up and step up, and well... If I knew how to do that well, i would rule the world.
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#18 Miri Boirelle

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Posted 24 July 2014 - 08:43 PM

I would agree with Yng 100% on tackling.. If the opposing fc points you then deal with it, if he/she scrams you the I will let em have it overheated every time... The same with glass cannons... If i'm in a squishy I will let em have it... Before you cry foul.. Consider this.. Both actions by the opposing fc will be my book as misusing their immunity. And before you cry another foul about fcs being too hard to come by, they already have a gentlemans agreement keeping most dps off em.. Just my 0.02 isk...
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#19 Lady Ayeipsia

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Posted 24 July 2014 - 09:42 PM

We need to talk about this gentlemen's agreement and it's purpose...

Several of you make it seem as if it's some shady, smoke-filled, backroom deal. The FC's aren't off plotting how to live forever, but get on as many killmails as possible, swearing "grr line members" under their breath all the while counting our ill-gotten poco isk.

Nor was it some strange, WASPish, country club idea where we ask Geeves to bring over the bubbly to toast our new method of staying 1%ers while we seek treatment for our Hapsburg Lip and put down the plebbies.

No, it stemmed from a darker time, a less purple time when RvB was more Red vs Blue, and the only people admitting to having accounts in both corps were the upper echelon of command. I say admitting because it was a time when we truly worried about corp spies from across the way. Back from the days of no corp bookmarks, with safes and tacs being closely guarded and often changed secrets. Back when don't be a dick wasn't still being formed.

Imagine a time when your primary list was less about culling DPS and more about headshotting the enemy FC, for the side with the last talking FC held the field. My primary list would be Yng, Xancha, iredude, lionfist, etc, right till you ran out of people who talked. Their side, same thing. No FCs in glass cannons, you would die too quickly. And the winner usually was whichever side could keep having backups till the original FC returned.

And if you ever had a new guy step up to FC... Joy! You would hound him to lead because for the next week, they wouldn't know the primary... Until the corp spies or the snoops figures it out, then one more name on the target list.

Let me tell you that as both an FC and a line member, it sucked. For line members, yeah you lasted maybe a little longer, but after 2 ships lost, you were FCless. Your fleet would bail, The other fleet would spread points and often, you lose several ships and the field. For FCs... Welcome to flying a punisher or Maller... With ACs as this was pre-balance. And that was what you had to train to last, even if you didn't FC often as you were still on the list.

So... To promote longer fights, more fun, a bit more purple spirit and less us vs them, the Gentlemen's agreement evolved. And I do mean evolved. It was never some hard, fast rule. You can all obviously see why. Any hard, fast rule will be abused.

And that's why the term gentlemen is in there, as a term to remind us it is more about honor, and us as FCs trying to encourage a good, fun fight, not see what cheap trick we can squeak by to get some little advantage.
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#20 Lady Ayeipsia

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Posted 24 July 2014 - 10:12 PM

And this leads into the concept of point on an FC...at least for me.

As a gentleman, I don't want a cheap, unfair advantage. I'm not flying some glass cannon doubling my normal dps. I don't forgo tank for gank, ewar, speed, or something else. If anything, I am trying to fly a slightly tankier ship just in case, cause well... People get pissed and shoot the FC even when told not, but it is still a ship I would happily take to a fight even if not the FC.

As for alternatives to a point... Would you prefer disruptors or damps? That seems to me to be a cheap advantage. Ok, so those are out. Painter... Maybe, but I start bringing HAM fleets and it's an advantage.

I could go shield tanked Moa or Rupture, no mids... But all those open lows... That rapidly approaches glass cannon. Dual tank or cap rechargers? Sorry, I want some fun not bad fits for the rest of my FC days.

About the only option is points and webs. You expect to get pointed in a fight if you get too close to an enemy, you expect to get webbed too. Why should it matter if the FC is throwing an extra scram on you? If you are primaried, most of the enemy fleet should be doing the same. And an FC should be just as able to catch a stabber or the like zipping in as anyone else.

As for if it's only the FC pointing you... Either you were:

Kitey, got caught, and are about to be primaried, you will die so why care;

The FC's the last one left in range, a fair target, shoot him if your FC says so, no worries;

Your fleet is bailing, and they are spreading points, no different than if you were caught by anyone else, why worry?

The FC is doing something cheap and underhanded by giving his fleet free slots for other uses, you will have more immediate problems to deal with, and that FC is a rat bastard deserving no gentlemen's agreement, kill them.

So really, unless that point us causing some unfair advantage, better than the alternatives.
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