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#21 Mangala Solaris

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Posted 10 June 2014 - 12:23 PM

Think with increasing numbers to 8 just means larger initial teams and around 150-160 people committing time up front, which could well lead to a larger drop out ratio and way more hassle. (also its not possible to lock 16 dudes, how will that be streamed :D).


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#22 Arjar Ammar

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Posted 10 June 2014 - 12:31 PM

Not a fan of increasing the number of ships, I reckon Mang has covered the reasons why.

As for the BC's, if we keep the overall points where they are, or raised very slightly, (to where you can field 2 BC's and one T1 frig?), then you are only going to have one or two at the very most and two is going to gimp the rest of your team significantly, they also allow the team captain to have a fallback comp if he only has 3 people there on the day, or indeed 2 as happened last weekend.

 

Edited to add.

Also Mang did a great job with the initial teams of having at least one hight SP character in each that could fly pretty much anything - if the format is the same in the autumn then I don't see the problem with SP's!


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#23 iixty

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Posted 10 June 2014 - 12:38 PM

adjust point cap to see less cruisers and more variety

 

for example:

 

25 point cap

cruisers 7 

t1 frigs 1 point

interceptors, destroyers, indy 2 points

logi frig, crucifier/maulus/vigil 3 points

assault/pirate/electronic attack frig/interdictor 4 points

logi cruiser 9

t2 logi/navy cruiser 13

t1 bc 15

 

don't add too many ships, participants will want to remove them from overview, and then those ships can't be "security" for the event. 

you want to emphasise the whole RvB is accessible to everyone thing. maybe navy cruisers would be allowed but at an inflated point cap. hard to balance as some of the bigger ships can have unkillable tanks.


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#24 tgl3

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Posted 10 June 2014 - 12:52 PM

Ban Vexors & Moas imo.

 

On a more serious note, my personal gripes

1) Cruiser prevalence. Cruisers were too cheap, or max points were too high. This might just be the side effect of the Vexor being so relatively powerful in small numbers. Which it is. Don't even try to deny it.

 

2) Other ships on grid. Some big ships could be excluded via overview settings, but overall other ships on grid made it a right pain to sort hostiles from not-hostiles, especially with some of the neutral ships being frigates & cruisers. Since we're in highsec, there's not a lot I can suggest to resolve this, unfortunately. I'm just pointing it out.

 

3) No shows. My team had 1 guy not show up for any match. Other teams had more. It's great we had awesome standins, but some incentive to not skip-out is needed. Sometimes RL gets in the way, and I get that, but some people didn't even communicate that they'd be unavailable. A ISK deposit (returnable if you show up and fight) seems like a good way to incentivise showing up to your commitment.

 


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#25 Dracoth Simertet

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Posted 10 June 2014 - 01:05 PM

Ack fair point can't lock that many dudes and yep getting that many people is an issue for all you bads my guys turned up... mostly  :P

 

iixty's idea is good change the points around to get more frigs in there. Maybe have the Moa and Vexor at 8 points to encourage different cruisers. 

 

o7

Drac

 

 

 

 

 

 


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#26 Malus Fenix

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Posted 10 June 2014 - 01:47 PM

Going to echo some others here.

 

1) Not keen on adding more ships, biggest reason is the cost for people that might not be all that space rich.  Even at cruiser down a lot of folks sunk a fair bit of money into this, and while it should have been done for the fun of it, adding BCs just increase that to where it might make folks hesitant to sign up.  Especially if we have even more teams, the number of matches you might need to account for gets a bit overwhelming :)

 

2) ISK deposit, totally for this.  I'd say base it on SP with a cap, that way your higher SP dudes who you are really counting on to be there have a decent penalty if they no show, and the new bros who might not have that much are hit less hard (and it will be easier to sub for them from stand ins).

 

Edit:  Oh and yes as for the others around the field helping out, make sure they are in something that isn't allowed to be fielded, there were some folks I just had to live with on my overview because they were in frigs (*cough* mangs ranis *cough*)


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#27 biohazrd51

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Posted 10 June 2014 - 02:46 PM

Just thought I'd throw my two pence in here (actually cents, but I have to speak carefully around mang)

 

Timezone: I thought the times were just about perfect for the way server population is in EVE.  A little bit later start might have been good, but the midday to evening is when things really pick up, especially on the stream side.  I do know it was quite early for some of the commentators in the later tzs.  

 

Typically when I stream on weekends, I start around 1300 EVE time.  It begins slow but as the day goes on, you pick up all those people as they are waking up in the morning across the US, and as they are settling in for the evening in the EU.

 

It sucks for some, and while I don't know the diversity of RvB that well, it seems to work well for the majority.

 

Host: Hanging Mangala (or someone) as host would be great.  I think we did fine for a last minute, thrown together broadcast, but it would be nice for a dedicated host to drive the discussion and talk with the commentators about fleet comps, what teams like to fly, post match wrap-up, etc.  We would probably put a schedule together to run all of it, and groups will probably need to be broken out as: Host(s), commentators, Refs/Cat Herders, Stream workers.  

 

Def Fleets: Worked pretty well.  I was surprised at the lack of interference for the size, and who was running it.  Only one WT posed as problem, and the other was completely random (lesson learned).

 

Team size:  I think 5v5 is perfect for being cruiser and lower.  The balance of control/ewar/DPS/reps seemed nice without one really overpowering the other, and causing fleets to adjust tactics, as well as reward the pilots who flew better.  If anything, I was disappointed to see a lack of Min/Amarr ships.  

Random thought and not very well thought through, but what if there was some sort of SP cap per team?  A cap would allow for 1 or 2 very well seasoned pilots, plus a mixture of new players?  I haven't put any thoughts into the pros and cons into this and how it might affect teams.  Especially since I don't know all the pilots that well.

 

Deposit: Sounds great.  The mixing up of teams was kind of a pain on the stream side.  We were constantly adjusting for new pilots subbing in, setting standings immediately before matches, etc.  Having a stake in tourny from the pilots side would encourage turnout.

 

Implants: This shouldn't be too hard to check.  I know EVEmon has a tool as an API checker, but not sure if it includes implants.  I could probably write a quick script to check API keys and hand it over to mang or someone that does the API stuff.  

 

Anyways, a few thoughts.  I had a blast working with all of you this weekend and I'm already looking forward to next time.  I've got some new ideas in my head and ways to improve the stream side for the fall (err, sorry mang, autumn).  


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#28 Malus Fenix

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Posted 10 June 2014 - 03:16 PM

 

Implants: This shouldn't be too hard to check.  I know EVEmon has a tool as an API checker, but not sure if it includes implants.  I could probably write a quick script to check API keys and hand it over to mang or someone that does the API stuff.  

 

 

Right now it looks like you can get the data from the character sheet endpoint, but it looks like you can only get info on slots 1 - 5, which I guess is likely "good enough" for our needs.  Also, I'm having trouble finding out info on it, but I know those have a bit of a cache to them, so people would need to know to jump out of their pirate clones well ahead of time, but that also means someone could in theory jump into one before say the finals and I don't think we would ever really know if they did it before or after.

 

I spoke to Socksfour about this at Fanfest.  Ideally they want to get an authenticated CREST endpoint out.  Mang, maybe you can bug him through your channels about the status?  I'd also volunteer to write something to use it for our needs.


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#29 Vash Aideron

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Posted 10 June 2014 - 04:57 PM

As far as team size i think it would be nice to bump it to 6 while only bumping the max points to 34-36 to encourage more of a frigate support like wing other than just a maulus

 

When it comes to expanding ships I would really like to see the expansion to t2 cruiser and down a decent amount of people had the ability for t2 logi so why not t2 cruisers obviosly make them worth a decent chunk of points at least so that your choosing either t2 logi or the t2 cruiser hull and if not that at least do the flagship theme with navy cruisers not super skill intensive and between the team I would say its affordable.

 

Also really like the deposit amount based on sp and would like to add the exception if RL things emerge and you can't make the tourney as long as that person gave X amount of notice to the team captain they can get X amount of said deposit back


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#30 Thecla Elarik

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Posted 10 June 2014 - 05:30 PM

that Maulus to fill the points from 4x cruiser ended up being a poor choice in many cases :P
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#31 Mangala Solaris

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Posted 10 June 2014 - 05:40 PM

Im not a fan of anything that looks to increase the fielded team size (hell im leaning away from having bigger teams that just rotate players, but we'll see). Also look at the issues we had with some teams keeping 5 guys. this just makes the risk worse of no shows etc.  5 v 5 is a nice place.

 

5 worked great to stream (which has to be a consideration when we have very limited tools at our disposal), and for the meta overall imo.

 

Whatever happens following all the feedback and ideas here, I am sure that the next one will be more of a success. 

 


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#32 Vash Aideron

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Posted 10 June 2014 - 05:53 PM

it might be worth waiting till sign ups to see. even though a lot of dudes dropped out there ended up being plenty showing up and possibly since after seeing publicity from the first would encourage even more to participate and if we had more than we did this time we might need to increase team size just to be able to fit the tournament into a reasonable time slot


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#33 Mangala Solaris

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Posted 10 June 2014 - 05:55 PM

My dream is a 64 team tournament :D


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#34 Buzzing AlarmClock

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Posted 10 June 2014 - 08:26 PM

Consider banning T2 rigs - This will help keep the costs down and lessen some of the multiplier effects of the high end implants on cruiser tanks. After 8 (i lost count) rounds I certainly felt the impact in my wallet.

 

Match scheduling - The double elimination format is hard on teams punching their way through the loser bracket. Whilst I enjoyed all the fights we had and getting more air time than other teams, I was absolutely shagged by the end of the day. I would have preferred the break to be after match AB if at all possible as this would have avoided playing 4 matches in a very short space of time.

 

FC interviews - I thought it was a nice touch hearing from the FCs at the end. A few more post-match interviews could have added a little bit more to the overall viewing experience.

 

Jita runners - Some trusted contact in a blockade runner to pickup collateral free courier contracts would be a nice to have. Screaming at traffic control in NC on a Sunday afternoon was an unnecessary distraction when trying to discuss comps and tactics with an obvious vexor ban on the horizon. A 6th team member could have been useful here.

 

I agree with tgl on the overview situation. I lost one opposing worm due to the clutter.

 

Zero complaints on ship bans or 3rd party WTs/opportunist suspect hunters.


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#35 Tampopo Field

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Posted 10 June 2014 - 09:24 PM

First off thanks for arangeing the Cup. Had fun.

 

Secondly you said don't whine. Is wine ok?

   #
  :#:
  : :
  : :
.'   '.
:_____:  .___. .___.
|     |  |   | |   |     
|     |  '. .' '. .'   
|     |    |     |   
|_____|    |     |    
:_____:   -'-   -'- 

Suggestions

#1: "Neutral logi and you - high sec edition" -info mail sent to all captains. Having your logi pilot wonder why he can't rep anyone for the first minute of the fight. Green safety & out of corp team members = bad mix. Didn't know they worked that way so couldn't advise the logi pilot about it. There will prolly be other captains who don't know that  in the next tournament as well.

 

#2: Have the commentators ask for the fits in team fleet chats, so tehy don't have to "wonder how was that Stabber fitted" in the after action commentary.

 

#3: Allow ECM drones. That will add more options for fleet setups. Though they might be a bit op without smartbombs to clear them off.

 


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#36 Tampopo Field

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Posted 10 June 2014 - 09:29 PM

Consider banning T2 rigs - This will help keep the costs down and lessen some of the multiplier effects of the high end implants on cruiser tanks. After 8 (i lost count) rounds I certainly felt the impact in my wallet.

 

FC interviews - I thought it was a nice touch hearing from the FCs at the end. A few more post-match interviews could have added a little bit more to the overall viewing experience.

 

Also both of these please.


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#37 Mangala Solaris

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Posted 10 June 2014 - 09:38 PM

The captains interviews after matches is certainly something I want to have in from the start next go round. When I got Drac/TG/Malus to jump on before the finals it was pretty good, and then Xan/Buzzing/Thanatonic after the final cemented the idea as a brilliant one. Really will help keep any dead air between matches too.

 

Re: ECM Drones. Good call, they are allowed in day to day RvB after all ;)

 

Re: T2 rigs. Its under advisement.


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#38 Tampopo Field

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Posted 10 June 2014 - 09:45 PM

I like the idea of 6 man teams over 5

 

No. 5 man teams are great.
 


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#39 Keeto

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Posted 11 June 2014 - 01:13 AM

Read a few of the other suggestions, here's my 2 pence...

 

- War targets - boost up security but honestly on the day, it wasn't as big a deal as it is being made out to be, got me an extra kill actually :)

 

- Ship Banning in Finals - A little OP, kinda hard and prohibitively costly to adapt in the timeframe when the main ship from your setup gets banned.  The reward for winning all the way shud just be less games to play to reach the finals.

 

- Ship Types - Increase the ship types to choose from and the points, but only a little, so we see a little more variety and different approaches. Also as mentioned before don't ban vexors and Moas from tourneys just because they did well, anything can be countered.

 

- Prizes - Prizes were a little top heavy this time, a little more spread and larger prizepool would be good.

 

- Ban t2 Rigs Idea - Not a bad call, my wallet was empty by the end of the final, especially when having to buy extra ships and mods for potential bans.

 

- Arena - Was very crowded in the centre, was a little confusing (yeah i know i need to setup my OV properly xD)

 

- Implant Restrictions? - Don't like the idea of having to destroy implants on one of my clones and then buy a load more just so i have one which falls under tourney restrctions, I'm sure many others would feel the same.


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#40 Arjar Ammar

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Posted 11 June 2014 - 08:21 AM

 

- Ship Banning in Finals - A little OP, kinda hard and prohibitively costly to adapt in the timeframe when the main ship from your setup gets banned.  The reward for winning all the way shud just be less games to play to reach the finals.

 

- Ship Types - Increase the ship types to choose from and the points, but only a little, so we see a little more variety and different approaches. Also as mentioned before don't ban vexors and Moas from tourneys just because they did well, anything can be countered.

 

- Ban t2 Rigs Idea - Not a bad call, my wallet was empty by the end of the final, especially when having to buy extra ships and mods for potential bans.

 

- Arena - Was very crowded in the centre, was a little confusing (yeah i know i need to setup my OV properly xD)

 

- Implant Restrictions? - Don't like the idea of having to destroy implants on one of my clones and then buy a load more just so i have one which falls under tourney restrctions, I'm sure many others would feel the same.

 

Ship Banning - I sort of disagree with this, it's less of an advantage than in some other tourneys where the winners section team starts with an extra win. However bans for everybody after the first round as some people are suggesting would make start these problems off even earlier so I would definitely be against that. I think it gives the winners team just enough of an advantage - remember they are stopping themselves from taking that ship as well.

 

Ship Types - Agree completely

 

Ban T2 rigs - Yup Agree 100%, unless you can restrict implants in which case I'm not that fussed, still think banning on just cost grounds would be a good thing though.

 

Arena - It was crowded and I had set up my overview correctly, At one point I thought I might have to dodge around a commentators ship to head directly for my target but they were kind enough to move right where I needed them to.

 

Implant Restrictions - Er, seriously? How easy is it to set up an extra jump clone or two, or three these days? and if you restrict to the AT implants it isn't that expensive at all. In a 5 man tourney pirate implants have a proportionately huge effect as was seen in several matches over both days. If there was only to be one change this is the one I would push hardest for.


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